Meta is bad, but is Discord?

  • Had this chat with a few folks recently: Whilst encouraging in game communication is clearly good for the game, does that necessitate banning the use of external comms? As it stands, enforcing this rule relies on player reports to police it and perhaps approaching this from a different angle might prove more beneficial and easier to enforce?

    What I propose is simple: You can be on external comms, but if you do you must use push to talk, and you must use the same button in game as you do in your external comms tool. This is no harder or easier to enforce than the current rule - you still have to listen for the awkward pauses, background noises and such; Arguably this could make life easier, as you would expect to hear players talking to each other over comms in the game (or rather, you'd expect to hear people seemingly talking to themselves!), and if you do not (yet the person seems able to access information they don't necessarily have at their fingertips) then you have clear cause for suspicion.

    Once the server files are in place it should be fairly simple to rig something up to the Discord API and allow the server to cross check usernames against connections, divine their Discord UID and correlate this to a SteamID for the purposes of soft whitelisting, but for now I think relaxing the rule on external comms would be in the best interest of the game!

  • The only ones using discord and breaking the rules are the typical deathsquad KOS groups getting onto the server. The point of the rule isn't so much about being able to hear people speak ingame, but to make sure they can't metagame, your proposal doesn't really change anything for the better, it'd just make groups use discord when far away from eachother.

    You know the problem with drawing lines in the sand? With a breath of air, they disappear.

    Revenge isn't a passion, it's a disease. It eats at your mind and poisons your soul.

    In this world there are no sides, only players.

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    The point of the rule isn't so much about being able to hear people speak ingame, but to make sure they can't metagame



    The official discord, barrel map etc somewhat undermine that! Let's not talk either about the reality of individuals streaming live, and the possible advantages that particular meta can offer to friends and foe alike.

    Completely avoiding meta is of course impossible and I'm being a little glib here: The point being that it makes no sense for players who work within the spirit of the server, and place themselves at a gaming disadvantage that increases the opportunity for interaction, to suffer punitive measures as a result: Particularly when such a large segment of the community are connected together on Discord, albeit in good faith and in text.

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    your proposal doesn't really change anything for the better, it'd just make groups use discord when far away from eachother.



    It doesn't make it any harder to enforce and it allows people casual conversation in the quiet hours with a tactical disadvantage. Surely enabling players without making administering the server any more difficult is a good thing?

    Edit: Collecting data on how people use Discord in DayZ will be useful when trying to create scripts that integrate Discord with Enfusion, too.

    Edit2:

    I've had a handful of friendlies turn to me and ask if they mind would I talk to their friend on Discord real quick; Of the handful of encounters, not one tried to kill me. It's not merely KOS deathsquads who have friends playing other games. I even had to take some friends to a different server as the rules here prevented me from holding their hands through the initial stages of the game!

  • place themselves at a gaming disadvantage that increases the opportunity for interaction, to suffer punitive measures as a result

    I've played a good 600 hours on this server, ofc we run into the casual rulebreakers, but I don't think it's a solution to use Discord. I don't see what it would bring to the server and to the players that'll improve the server. If you wanna talk to someone that's far away, find radios. If you don't have radios? Then you have to meet up.

    You know the problem with drawing lines in the sand? With a breath of air, they disappear.

    Revenge isn't a passion, it's a disease. It eats at your mind and poisons your soul.

    In this world there are no sides, only players.

  • I think the rule is more here to force people into interacting more than to stop meta, people can always type via steam to give important infos to their friends, however it's a hassle and you'll obviously prefer to talk in game as it's faster and less of a burden. And so people talk in game and can be heard/interacted with. forcing people into talking with each other instead of a giant map with only silent joggers.

    I think in this sense the rule is a success, the fact that it's very hard to enforc is a big downside, but it's a trade-off, with current DayZ system there's not much admins can do to customize their server. When modding drops, i expect mods like Task Force Radio to solve this problem.

  • I think I read a similar idea on Reddit some time ago about using push to talk with the same key as VOIP. Of course the concept behind this idea is very noble, but i think it would remain impractical and uncontrollable. Everything always comes down to the honesty of who plays on the server so, at least for now, I do not think there is a way to reconcile this restriction with a mixed system.


    Its unfortunately true that many of us relegate playing with some friends because they are clearly not willing to submit to this rule (at least it happens to me) and, aslo, the fact that many squads (both "random squads" that enter the servers and the "regular players") use external comms all the time represents a big disadvantage in a pvp situation. I personally have recordings where, when being interrogated from outside a house, before they rush me, behind the microphone of one of that guys you could hear his "compadre" saying stuff like "let me go first, i have the shotgun"... things that you couln´t hear through the VOIP of course. But i just thinkg it is unnecesarry to report it.


    The reason is: living a hardcore game experience depends on each one of us. It is frustrating, difficult, extremely tedious at times and exhausting, but it is rewarding. The one that wants to enjoy this is entirely up to him to do it and the ones that do not, they probably have a great advantage in the pvp and in multiple situations ... but surely they do not enjoy the game as much as I do when I turn on my radio, contact 4-5 people I do not know, from a country that I did not even know existed, live that first encounter paraonia and enjoy what may emerge from there.


    If any suggestion could be added to this thread would be the following:

    1) That the server indicates that the use of external voice chat is punishable and not just "Plase don´t... we encourage"

    2) That the message be repeated more frequently (and not only at the beginning/log). I do not think its gonna be too invasive.

  • Why do people cheat? Why do people hack?


    I once read a ban appeal from a dude who was banned from battlefield 3. His argument for downloading an aimbot was that “those sad fucks who play hours a day have all the best guns and I’m sick of them kicking my ass when I want to enjoy my hour an night”. It was quite unexpected to hear this as justification. Of course it’s no excuse to download exploits but he did so to try to level the playing field. He felt at a disadvantage because people were better than he was at the game.


    Now, assume for a moment there are rule breakers amongst you, let’s call them Group A. Some of them are coordinating their efforts in silence and destroying you and those you play with on a daily basis. They don’t care for an undetectable server rule, they probably don’t care about the server or what it stands for either. What do you have to counter act them, to make a balance? A buggy radio with a 30 minute battery lifespan. In game comms that is undetectable from 20 metres away. How fair is that? The bastards, eh?


    Then you have Group B, those that are aware they are breaking said server rule but try to stay within the boundaries of not using it to gain advantage over others. They use it to keep in touch and talk shit to each other while they try to make it back from the coast to their agreed location. They won’t see anyone on the way there. Who is being harmed? If they do see someone they don’t use discord because they value the interaction. They like the immersion. But every so often when faced against Group A to balance that they dip into the meta to get that playing field on a more even par. The bastards eh?


    Both are regarded as the same and both will be banned in a heart beat with the same shitty stick.


    The balance is not right. Interaction should be encouraged but the balance should be even at all times.

    THE QUEEN'S GUARD
    Status: Unknown
    Armbands: Black
    Frequency: 91.9
    Strength in teamwork. Pride and trust in each other. To war, we go...

  • "I m suggesting its required to have a working radio when you are heading back, and during attacks we try to use radios only. Use of discord only for bs when possible.."

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    "when we are all over the map is fine. When in company you should deafen via a hot key."

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    "we should only use it when we are alone as a group"

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    "Like I've said before I come online and play game with my mates to have a crack(shits an giggles) to have just in game com sours that big time..example.. you spend 2 hours trying to get back and keep getting killed so in the end u dont make it and in reality spend the time on your own. And TBH that makes me not want to play"

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    "I think discord is perfect when we are apart from each other or alone as a group. But ingame and radio when others are around. im for one has a hard time separate the channels in the heat of battle."

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    "To me discord with ingame coms is a total clusterfuck during firefights coz I dont understand what ppl are saying or doing and I end up dead 9/10."

    THE QUEEN'S GUARD
    Status: Unknown
    Armbands: Black
    Frequency: 91.9
    Strength in teamwork. Pride and trust in each other. To war, we go...

  • While this discussion is really good (please keep going) I have a few things to add to this. Please don't take this as a response as a moderator, more just a personal opinion on the matter, or part of it. :)

    While I can most definitely see the reason behind some of the frustration (I mean I sit here and have to judge whether or not someone uses 3rd party voice comms without having any proper evidence, because it's near impossible to get it...), I don't really understand most of the supposed "fixes" to the problem stated so far. Most of them seem to not clear the problem with proving wrong-doing at all. "You have to bind the TS hotkey to the same as in-game" we have absolutely no way of enforcing that either. Or "You should deafen yourself when in company with a hot key" while I love the idea behind this for legitimate players, we still can't enforce it.

    Seems more like a statement there's a problem and then attempting to fix it by talking about a rule-change that won't fix the fundamental problem of this rule anyway.

    I am well aware this is just a discussion and not all of this is genuine suggestions to a rule change, just something that is mentioned. I just came to think of it as it seems to be the same result in all suggestions and/or mentions so far. :)

  • The removal of the rule is the only way that the issue will go away.


    Why have a rule that is virtually impossible to detect and impossible to prevent?


    In game comms and radios provides immersion. Immersion is the best way to play. This is 100%. Those that want immersion get it, rulenor not. Those that don’t want it don’t. The rule doesn’t affect people’s immersion.

    THE QUEEN'S GUARD
    Status: Unknown
    Armbands: Black
    Frequency: 91.9
    Strength in teamwork. Pride and trust in each other. To war, we go...

  • Guys, it's the same as apple glitching, suicide glitching, well glitching, increasing gamma at night.... All of these things are essentially unenforceable rules. That's not the point, the point is a lot of the community takes those rules to heart. It's more of an on your honor thing.

    I'll tell you right now I've encountered squads on this server that were 100% coordinating outside of direct chat in game. But for all I know, those guys were sitting in the same room talking in real time. Heck, I've PERSONALLY watched a big name streamer and their friend on this server streaming live and coordinating IN discord/TS as well as openly admitting they are screen sharing each others stream. No I'm not going to tattle on them as I really doubt it's provable at this point.

    It's a matter of honor. Death squad rule breakers will never have that and likely don't even care what server they are on.

    When it comes to the village, I play 100% legit. Well make that 99%, I've tossed myself off buildings to get better spawns, that's not part of the game. But honestly, this "project" works best when the core userbase is following those unwritten "don't be a dick" rules.

    Back to comms.... I did play on a server way back when that had specific rules about meta gaming and comms. You could only use outside comms (discord/ts/whatever) if both parties had workable radios. Much like the current rule here, you simply can't prove it, you can ASSUME it.

    And what about me streaming and talking back to my chat? how does that work in? I mean there's clearly a delay, but anyone who's watched someone stream knows the chat ends up backseat gaming, spotting people, etc etc. Is that not meta?

    Pick your battles. The current rules outside of what can be witnessed in the logs (not much) and captured as evidence in videos/screen caps, are mostly an on your honor type thing. Not everyone will honor them. At least with comms is seems kinda easy to spot the squads using 3rd party VOIP as they are tactical, coordinated and completely silent.

  • Been away for a few days; My apologies for the slow response!


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    The current rules outside of what can be witnessed in the logs (not much) and captured as evidence in videos/screen caps, are mostly an on your honor type thing. Not everyone will honor them. At least with comms is seems kinda easy to spot the squads using 3rd party VOIP as they are tactical, coordinated and completely silent.

    The rule change I proposed doesn't alter this in any way: Those squads would still be silent and coordinated, and detection wouldn't be any more difficult; Arguably if it were an "honour rule" that one uses PTT and binds the keys in-game to match the comms software they use (regardless of whether they choose to use external comms!), one would expect to hear at least some snippets of chatter during combat situations if the individuals are being honest, allowing the lack of chatter to imply foul play and thus be submitted as circumstantial video evidence of rule breaking. Right now it's nearly impossible to provide evidence of foul play, and the only examples where I could personally prove it have been when individuals have admitted to having external comms whilst interacting with me, and have specifically asked my permission to contact their friends. In the same vein, the accused can more easily provide video evidence showing that they were simultaneously broadcasting in game during the incident, and that their accuser simply couldn't hear it.

    Such use is completely against the rules as Trojan suggested, but I wouldn't want to report it as I do not believe it outwith the spirit of the rule. Adopting the PTT rule would legitimise this behaviour without harming anyone's immersion, and would make it simpler for individuals to collect evidence on suspected wrongdoing.

    Edit: Crucially it would also add a disadvantage to using external comms: Everything you said would also be broadcast in game, increasing the chance that you would give away your position if you typically like to chat whilst you play and increasing the opportunities for interactions of all sorts!

  • Let me try this another way:

    If you discovered someone because they were apparently talking to themselves in the woods, would you interact with them or report them for breaking the rules?

    If the former, what is the purpose of banning external comms again?